The ESPC Property Show: Retrofitting & making your home energy efficient

Paul
Hi, it's Paul. And as ever, it's.

Megan
Megan,

Paul
I love that bit! It's my favorite, part of the show. Yeah. Thanks for joining us today. Interesting episode. Today we were thinking about our title for this one and we've come up with. It's a catchy title, isn't it? It's retrofitting and making your home energy efficient.

Megan
Yeah, so we were joined by. Ewan and Sam from Change Works and we had a really interesting discussion all about, yeah, as you said, retrofitting and everything you need to know about making your home more energy efficient. So we touched on things obviously outwith retrofitting. We have some quick tips for anyone looking to make their home more energy efficient. But also just learning more about ground source heat pumps

Paul
and the air one. Yeah, we asked a lot of questions and we hope these are the questions that you'd want to know. And we're trying to stand in the shoes of a of a homeowner or or a landlord or a tenant, just ask the right questions really. But we think we asked the right questions. We've got some good answers.

Megan
Yeah, we got some really good answers and Sam goes into a lot of detail about their initiative, EcoCosi, which has just launched. But if you stay tuned, you can find out all about that from Sam directly in this episode.

Paul
Indeed. So here we go. Here's the episode.

Megan
Welcome back to the ESPC Property Show. On today's episode, we have got Ewan and Sam from Change Works. Ewan is the Technical Support Manager there and Sam is Strategic Development Manager. So guys, just to kick us off, we thought it would be good if you could introduce yourselves. And tell us a bit about what Changeworks is all about.

Sam
OK, Well, I'll kick off and then I'll hand over to Ewan. So yeah, my name is Sam Cribb and I'm Strategic Development Manager at Change Works and just give you a bit of background about Change Works. Change Works is Scotland's leading environmental charity and we deliver solutions for low carbon living. Our strategic focus is the decarbonisation of homes in Scotland, which has some of the least energy efficiency homes in Europe. And as change works, we have over 35 years delivering innovative solutions for low carbon living and we work collaboratively. we work with partners and organisations to drive transformation in energy efficiency and also to tackle fuel poverty, and we also provide advice and information to help householders with their decarbonisation journeys. So as strategic development manager, I'm actually working on the development and introduction of a new service for homeowners, which I know we'll come on and talk to. Talk about later and then Ewan is here representing the technical side of change works.

Ewan
Thanks Sam. So yeah, my name's Ewan Fisher and I've been at Change Works for about 12 years now. So I've done a range of different roles but my current role as Technical Support Manager. So my team provide Technical Support across a range of different Retrofit projects being delivered and managed by Change Works. So that's the in terms of Technical Support, it can cover a lot. We have a project administration team that's sit underneath me and they provide a lot of engagement and support with householders that are going through this process. But a key part of the service is also a quality assurance team. Now this is a team of Quality Assurance inspectors who some of which are also accredited Retrofit assessors and they provide on site support to make sure that any measures that are being installed are done so to the agreed contract specification. And the reason for that is we want to make sure householders get the full benefit from the measures so that they notice impact on their energy bills and we also meet with desired carbon savings that we're expecting from these measures. And it also helps to try and make a smooth customer journey as well.

Paul
And I think that's a really good point that you you're making there Ewan in as much that it's you can make a problem really insulated, but then it creates a whole new set of other problems if there's no ventilation, other things, doesn't it? So it's just say it's great that you've got the assessors in house there that go along and make sure these things are done.

Ewan
I think a real challenge with that was especially when we're trying to do things at scale, Yeah, so when we're delivering some of our larger energy efficiency projects, linked in with our energy Efficient Scotland area based schemes, these projects can be delivered in large scale. You know some projects can be over 200 properties. So it's making sure that the quality isn't getting neglected, just how we focus on quantity as well.

Paul
Yeah, absolutely. OK, Well, let's dive into the. Thank you for the introductions. We'll dive into the questions. I've got my jumper on today, cuz it's definitely getting colder 8 degrees I think it was today. So I think our listeners might be interested to know about the ways that they can insulate their own homes in a better way. So let's kick that off. Let's talk about that and particularly around retrofitting, which I like that phrase, but what that actually means. So yeah.

Ewan
Yes, it's a good question. So retrofitting, I think generally householders will assume retrofitting. It's about trying to make their homes more energy efficient so that they can reduce their energy bills. Something we're seeing more often now is also they're trying to reduce their impact on the environment as well. This has become a much higher up in people's agenda.

Retrofit can change it's there's different size and scales to retrofit projects and different complexities. One thing that we would always encourage is taking a fabric first approach. So when we say fabric first, it's about why can you reduce the energy demand of your property first of all. And by doing that, that's generally looking at improving the building fabric. So that's insulating the walls the roof.

Floors, etcetera. Looking at the building fabrics, you've got a sealed envelope, so you're looking at your glazing drafts, etcetera, those type of things. A really important point that we would emphasize just now as well though is when you're looking at doing the fabric first approach, it's also looking at repairs as well. So the actual condition of the building, I can an example for that would be looking at the external quality of the wall. There could be cracks where you could get water ingress.

So just say for example, you just look at the insulation measures, say you do internal wall insulation, but it's an old solid stone built property and there's a crack on external wall and water eventually over time starts to seep in and get into the insulation. It can cause real damage in time and then that insulation can now start to have a negative impact on your home. So it's it's about taking the whole house approach. We would say fabric first, so look to reduce the energy demand of the home, but also factor in the condition of the property as well. Once you've done the first stage of that, then we're looking at, well, how do we improve the efficiency of it in terms of what is heating the home, How can we make that more efficient?

And then also looking at generating your own electricity or sorry, your own energy, which primarily solar photovoltaic panels for example. So there's a hierarchy in steps that you want to follow in order to do things in the correct order in terms of the logical process for doing it as well. So the reason for fabric first is if you are going to change your heating system. You want to make sure the heating system is actually designed and sized to heat the end product of what your home's going to be. So if you add a load of new insulation to the property, that's going to reduce the heat demand of the home, which may mean that the heating system might not actually be sized correctly by the time that that works done.

Paul
OK, yeah. So you've got a boiler that's pumping out for a certain size or property and suddenly you've put Kingspan in and it's a more there are of a?

Ewan
Exactly.

Paul
Yeah, it's lasers available, but it means that it's slightly more cozy and you may not need the same size boiler or maybe a different type of boiler. Doesn't have to be gas fires. That's right. Come to that later.

Ewan
So even a key point I actually say, especially when you're looking at heat pumps for example. So we promote heat pumps a lot. So I know Sam will touch on this, but electrification of heat is something that we're looking at from an environmental perspective and the air short heat pump is seen as one of our sort of key solutions to achieving this. So they are quite sensitive and it's very important that they're sized correctly. And if you have an air sourced heat pump that's oversized, it can actually reduce the efficiency of how that system runs, so it becomes more expensive to run. So in that sense, it's actually having a negative impact on it. So it's about getting things done in the right order. One last point just on that, actually a really good starting point for this is having a an in depth assessment done with your property so you know exactly what your property's made-up of and what your starting point is so you understand. What measures are going to be suitable, What materials you think will be suitable for the home and what steps to do these things in as well.

Paul
So as part of that as you described there, the fabric first, so that would be, is that somebody that comes out from your organization or is that a surveyor that you get out to do the the initial assessment?

Ewan
It would really depend on how you want to approach this. So it's something that EcoCosi will offer through the support. So I know Sam will touch on us a bit more, but the starting point with EcoCosi would be to have a a retrofit assessor come out and do a detailed property audit basically. I'm sure listeners have probably heard people at ESPC talk about energy efficiencies, so domestic energy assessors doing Epcs. And performance certificates.

Paul
So it's a more detailed starting point than that, but it's that sort of principle using a similar process, there's somebody going around looking at all the touch points in the building, maybe an external, some inspection as well Loft go up on the loft.

Ewan
Yeah. So it's a whole house. So looking at the external condition of the property, even looking at neighboring properties, what factors could impact measures being installed looking at access? Doing a thorough internal inspection, doing a detailed floor plan, going up in the loft under the floors, if there's access, the whole lot if you can.

Paul
OK, All right. Well, we'll come to cost later, but that's, I just said it's very comprehensive, but a good place to start. So fabric first. I've learned something today.

Megan
So you and you already touched on EcoCosi, I know Sam, that's what you're you were going to chat to us more about. So yeah, could you tell us a bit more just about that service with EcoCosi?

Paul
And where'd you get the name from? We like that it's a name you remember.

Sam
Well, when I've talked through EcoCosi then you'll perhaps understand where where we got the name from old, so I'll touch on that at at the end. So as I said in the opening, unfortunately Scotland has some of the most energy inefficient homes in Scotland. In Europe, and it's estimated that about 13% of carbon emissions come from the home, so our homes. And to solve this challenge, it's estimated that between 1 and 1.5 million properties across Scotland will need some form of retrofit to help reduce the carbon emissions. And that's the, the challenge that change at Changeworks we're trying to tackle.

So we're leveraging our 35 years experience and the the technical knowledge and experience that we have within Changeworks to help combat that that impact. So we've recently developed and launched EcoCosi. We've initially launched the service in Edinburgh. And that is designed to be a trusted and supported end to end retrofit service that can provide support and guidance and advice to house owners to take them through their retrofit journey. So the service in essence has 3 different elements to it, three different stages.

The first stage, as Ewan has touched on, is to have a Changeworks. Retrofit assessor to come and visit your house and as Euan has given you some of the detail that's quite an in depth audit of the property. So fabric and also internal will also collect information from the the house owner on their energy use. So talking about how they use the energy, what energy they're using right now and then also then sort of start to talk to them about what their retrofit needs and aspirations are. So that's the first part of it.

All of that information is then collated and we develop a bespoke whole House plan And that plan then provides a sort of a number of different scenarios that the house owner could then follow in terms of installation measures. And as Ewan has quite rightly pointed out, there is a logical order in which to do that in to help you maximize the benefits of those installations. The second stage is then once we've got and developed that bespoke plan, we then have retrofit coordinator within Changeworks who can then talk through that plan with the house owner in more detail and start to talk about the installation measures that they actually want to implement what what are the things that that they can implement. Now those projects don't all have to be done in one go. That whole house plan can live with you and live with the property and you can actually sort of if you follow that logical order, you can actually sort of do it in a step by step basis.

So as you have said, we take a fabric first approach. So that's looking at the fabric of the building, the insulation. Filling any of sort of the the cracks, but also what's really important is also looking at ventilation measures. So not just wrapping the building so that it's completely airtight, it's also looking at ventilation solutions as well. And then going on for that what we will do because you know as Changeworks we are looking to reduce the carbon emissions.

We will then provide advice on fossil free heating systems, so looking at the solutions. That you can potentially put into into your property to get maximum benefit of it. The third stage is then all about sort of works on site. So with EcoCosi part of the barriers that the barriers that we know that homeowners face when they're looking at retrofit is actually connection to the supply chain. This is an evolving sector and evolving market, and homeowners are really starting to look.

To retrofit their homes but perhaps don't know enough about it, don't really know the contractors who they should talk to specialists in terms of who they they might need coming into the home to help them with this. So we're building a growing network of pre checked and vetted installation contractors that we can then connect homeowners with who can then perform the installation of those measures

Paul
and that's so important. Isn't it? That's really important in any emerging sector, which this really is. Yep, it's who you trusted in.

Sam
Absolutely, Yep. So it's making sure that the homeowner can make sort of an informed decision about getting the work done and also making sure that the money they're spending is money well spent. So the last part of that is change works then through quality assurance is then offering an opportunity to support the house owner with that and going in at the end of the installations to check that the work has been. The measures have been installed to the correct standards so that the homeowner can feel, you know, safe and secure that actually the the work's been carried out as as expected.

Paul
Yeah, I think certainly, I mean we have cases where like spray foam insulation's been used, which can be a challenge if you need to go and get a mortgage on a property, you know. So there are, yeah, things which may seem to make sense and of course that might make it, but may not be the best answer. But I'm sure there are some spray phone installation which is perfectly fine, but it's as you say it's back to who do you trust and how do you know really isn't?

Sam
It and it's making sure that the measures you're making are right for the home and can also achieve the output that you're wanting to achieve on that. So in essence, really EcoCosi is designed to. Help homeowners achieve retrofit projects with limited hassle. I'd say it's not no hassle because obviously there's there's obviously the the impact of measures being installed so there is there is some disruption but it's about taking the hassle out of the process and giving the owners confidence that actually taking action to reduce carbon emissions of their home. So there's the sort of eco efficiency of it?

But actually the results of retrofit means that you have a healthier, very comfortable, cosier home. So hence EcoCosi

Paul
Feels like that was a little Jingle.

Sam
So and so your listeners can find out more about EcoCosi on the Changeworks website so that's changeworks.org.uk. We've got lots of information on there about Retrofit, about some of the principles of Retrofit and then also information about the service and how people can get in touch with us about.

Megan
It if anyone's listening and just thinking oh, I'm not sure if my home needs retrofit it what kind of, you know is it traditional kind of tenement properties. We know that they're probably the most challenged in terms of insulation and and what upgrades they can do, but. You know, what kind of age or type of property would you be directing people towards retrofitting?

Sam
Yeah, well, I mean, I mean any age of of home really the eco cozy service, we've just launched this service and actually we're focusing on houses, so terrorists, semi detached or detached houses or bungalows. Flats offer and sort of more complexity in terms of retrofitting and as we develop and grow our service then it is something that we are working towards the solution on. But right now we're focusing on on homes and sort of houses, sorry, in bungalows which you sort of you can take the whole house approach as opposed to as opposed to tenements and flats which add complexity, so. If you do own a flat it's it's there are things that you can do and and we will develop a service that that can help people but we don't have it quite just yet I'm afraid we're we're just.

Megan
No, that that makes sense. No, that all makes sense. Just just in case I was listening and they had any questions about that. Does that make sense?

Paul
I think it's a good point they make about a flat there, because they do it in isolation can make some benefit. But as you say, ideally you want the entire stair to sign up to the entire thing that you're so you're doing something across you know from the roof all the way down to the basement I would imagine. I mean it sounds great and and you know as I say this is the way you know changes here and I think we all have to get on board with this. Can I just ask you just a couple of things on cost, firstly, just the initial report then what sort of cost is that just to get that assessment done as you say to understand how you you're using energy, how much roughly does that that sort of report cost?

Sam
Yep. So our reports start at about £800. So if you think about that in terms of sort of what it takes to actually get that survey, think about what you have to do in terms of a home report, so. We've got Ewan's team who are involved in this. So they would need to be in the home sort of for about 3:00 or so hours, three or four hours.

So this is this is an in depth audit. If the property will also have to collect information from you then the building of the report is obviously where the expertise and knowledge comes in as well in terms of giving you that that plan. So you do actually get you know sort of it's not a one page solution, it's a booklet of information and guidance that that we can. Can provide you it then also gives you the the information that we can then take to the contractor who can then talk about and look at the installation specifications in more detail and then they can formulate sort of the installation plan around that. So it gives the homeowner all of the information in terms of what they need to then.

Enable those conversations to have with with the contractor.

Paul
Sure. And and am I right in thinking you can, you know, as you described, there's, there's three phases. You can simply just have the first phase and think, right. OK, I know all that. Yep.

And I'll save up some money and I don't need to go to the second.

Sam
So there's no obligation, there is no obligation having the report to actually go ahead with the works. And like we've said, any retrofit project, if you're following the steps, it might be that the first step is actually you do, you do your repairs, you look at some insulation on on the property and then you can look at the step improvements from then on in. So it can really suit anybody's budget to do that, but it means that you've got all the information that you could possibly need to then go ahead and make an informed decision about what's right for you and right for your property.

Paul
I mean it's as you say great place to start and and making sure as you say the fabric of it is right in the first place in in terms of then if we if you are going to do the work and I I do recall in the past there's been things like the Green Deal that the government brought to market in 2009 or something but there was not much take up then it's really interesting and we see espc.com the. Interested in the home report, the Ng efficiency in 2009 versus the interest in it in 2023, it's significant growth there that you know the generation coming through buying property. Now we're more interested in as we all should be in in in what's happening if people want to get this work done, is that grants available as the funding, as the low cost loans? What's the situation with that side of it?

Ewan
So, so there's a mixture of things that's available. I think first of all, some energy efficiency measures can be for themselves. So which is always something to keep in mind. I know when we talk about making energy efficiency improvements, we do generally ask So what fund and what support is available. But I do think it's key to remember some measures, you know, improving your insulation, green heating systems.

This will save you money on your energy bills and in some cases over the lifetime of the measure, you can recoup your initial outlay. The challenge is it's the initial outlay because of some measures may have, you know you're talking long term. So with a boiler you know 10/12/15 years perhaps so or heat pump exactly et cetera. So it's a long term potential week for that outlay to come back.

Paul
Yeah. And saying that, I do think, I mean you know we we talk about making the decision on where you're going to live for five years or maybe 10 averagely people move maybe have 7. But we know that people are properties which have got this work done, are becoming more attractive. Yeah, in in the marketplace.

Ewan
So there are different financial, yeah benefits to it, but there is a range of different funding that's available on on Changeworks websites. Again changeworks.org.uk there is a list of the different funding that's available. So to give some examples for the self funded market, so where you may not be eligible for the fuel Poverty grants through the Home Energy Scotland's Loan and grant scheme, that is funding that is available. An example of that would be if you were looking to put in an air source heat pump. There's a grant of up to £7500 and an optional loan of an additional £7500.

Paul
How much is a pump just out of interest?

Ewan
It it really, it really does vary. It can range from between sort of 10-15 thousand pounds. So the funding is designed to cover your outlay. OK, heat pumps are quite difficult because it's very much dependent on how much work you need done to the distribution system. What kind of pipe works involved, But I think it's safe to say you could be in the region of between £10,000-£15,000 as a sort of average price.

So the funding is designed to cover that kind of full range of the cost.

Paul
Right. OK, that's it. I'm going to ask you I, I, I said we jump around. I'm going to ask a question about ground source heat pumps. If you've got a gas fired central central heating boiler, and you've got a central heating system with radiators and the and the like.

Is it as simple as just swapping out one boiler for another, or do you have to run completely new pipes to the radiators? Or do you need new radiators?

Ewan
So if you're putting in a heat pump, yeah. So in most cases you will normally need to upgrade some of your radiators. The reason being is the the air sources heat pump. The full temperature is slower so the gas boiler will be working at a much higher temperature so the water going through the radiators will be at much higher temperature, whereas with a heat pump it could be between 45-50 degrees. So it's significantly lower.

So to achieve that, to make it sure it will meet the heat demand of the property, you need to make sure the distribution system is sized correctly and that you've got adequate pipework. So in most cases, even in we've seen this, even in modern build properties, this is. Where there's a real frustration because you would think if you're building a brand new house, it's developers, why not future proof it? So that's something that you can factor in as future proof in your house when you're doing retrofit measures. Maybe you're not putting in the heat pump this time, but why not make your distribution system suitable for low temperature heating?

It will make your gas boiler run more efficiently and in time it could. The heat pump can be connected up to it. So sorry this is a bit of a long.

Paul
No, no, I'm interested. Yeah.

Ewan
Absolutely. Generally, generally the pipe, generally the some radiators will need upgraded is a minimum, right? That's why the costs are what they are. And it's also the design process. You need to make sure that the system is designed properly.

So you need to make sure you know this is when it comes back to the supply chain. You can't just Chuck in a heat pump, You need to make sure that it's designed to be the right size. Distribution system's done correctly, so you need to make sure you've got skilled people working on it as well.

Paul
And as you say, you can't just put the ground source heat pump in and. That's everything fixed, is it? I mean.

Ewan
Exactly, yeah.

Paul
I I'm not right. I'm just listen to Radio 4 the other week and we were talking about this. It was like a real long debate and I think there was a chap on that that was in in the business and he said it's not suitable for every property. You need to understand that it's not the panacea of their own properties where you're not going to be able to essential heat and boiler can get the heat higher. Is that right?

And and if you if you're not going to do the other work, a ground source heat pump may not be the solution.

Ewan
It really depends. On what the end user's goal is for it to be honest. So air source and ground source can heat pretty much any home within reason, as long as you've got somewhere to put the system and connect it up. But it won't always be cost effective to heat that home I think is the main thing. So from a practical point of view, can it achieve the heat demand?

It's likely that yes it will, it runs on electricity, so you end up just pumping more electricity into the pump, which isn't a cost effective way to do it. So generally they can heat most homes it's but can they heat them effectively And that's. And we would look at the suitability. So that for us that's where it comes down to, is this a sensible solution for somebody who's looking to save money on their energy bus for example. And in some cases answers might be no.

So if they have got an old and efficient home, they're not willing to make fabric improvements. They've maybe got modern gas boiler and. May be that actually just now based on what they're willing to do and what can afford to do, putting in the heat pump right now maybe isn't our best solution. So although we are certainly promoting the electrification of heat and trying to get that forward as an option, it's trying to do it and I'm just waiting. We're trying to make sure we don't put people.

Push people into fuel poverty by making these improvements so it's trying to do it in a fair and sensible approach.

Paul
So you put it in and your bill goes through the roof and I just say what have you actually achieved?

Ewan
Well, that's it, yes. So it's making sure people know the outcome of the impact of these measures that are being installed and then making sure that impact actually meets the agenda of the household and looking to achieve what they're hoping to.

Sam
And I think it's also worth saying that if you get that right, then obviously you can save money on your energy bills over time. But also retrofit, retrofitting your home is, is also about making it more comfy, more a cosier home, a healthier home for people to live in. And you're quite right, we've also seen that actually retrofitting can actually increase the value of your home as well. So the payback might be that you'll actually see it in in the resale value. So retrofit, whether you're an environmentalist or not, actually is a really sensible and clever investment to make on your home for the future and and for now in terms of the comfort of living in it.

So these costs that we're talking about might sound costly, sure, but over time you can receive the the sort of the reward for that both in the living conditions but also in the reduction of bills as well.

Paul
Can I ask one more question about ground sourced heat pumps, what, how does it work? So if you can do that and maybe very sure.

Ewan
So there's one thing just to say is it is so. The most common system we see is air source.

Paul
I was going to ask that was going.

Ewan
To be so, so air to water is generally the most typical system we will see. So ground source is where the the pipes or there'll be a loop system will will be underneath the ground and it's extracting temperature from the from the surrounding environment underneath the ground. So that's you need quite a large space for that. Generally you can do a borehole where you're going you can go up to like 100 metres deep for example but it can be quite rare. So air source air to water is generally the most typical system that we see being installed.

So I I think a simple way to explain that is air to Water Works like a reverse fridge. So it's it works at a low temperature. It draws in temperature from the surrounding air so they they are tested to work at. I think the manufacturer specs about -25 right. So even in Scotland and where where Sam's from you know these systems do work.

It releases gases with inside. It's a refrigerant that boils at a really low temperature, and then it goes through a compressor and when it compresses it. When it compresses, it raises the temperature. A, a very simple way I used to always get this explained to me when I was sort of starting out was it's like putting your your thumb over a bicycle pump and as you keep putting the pressure on, you'll start, you'll feel that heats up. Yeah. So it's a bit like that as a very sort of basic understanding. And then there's a heat exchanger that'll get heated up within the tank. So it's a wet system, so it's air to water. So it draws in there. That heats up the water through the heat exchanger.

It'll heat up the hot water within your tank and that will then get pumped around your radiators. It's designed to work at lower temperatures. So as I was saying before, about 45 to 55 Max normally. And it, yeah, it's designed to do all your space heating and hot water. So normally there will be an electric immersion with this as well.

So that can raise the temperature, temperature of your hot water and there'll be a Legionella cycle built in. So it can kill off any disease within your tank, and that that will normally be set up by your by your installer that's doing the work.

Paul
Wow. OK. Thank you. I understand it.

Ewan
Now does that make sense?

Paul
Well, I understand both now, so thank you.

Megan
So we're obviously talking about making your home more energy efficient, but just if anyone's listening just now and wants to make changes in the short term, what are three tips for making quick and effective changes to your somebody's home today?

Sam
Yeah, well at Changeworks, we provide advice on energy efficiency and tips as well so that you can get on our website. So before UN starts talking about more technical things, I guess there are immediate things that we can all do in the home to help reduce our energy usage. So there are really simple things like upgrading your white goods to more energy efficient models, obviously washing your clothes on on lower temperature grades. And also just simply, you know, sort of changing your light bulbs to LED's can have quite a significant impact actually over the course of of a year. But then of course there are probably the sort of the more technical alterations that that people can make to their homes just now and that can help.

Ewan
So three other things. So we thought we'd we'd kind of mix it. So there's three kind of simple quick things and three other things that you might want to consider longer term. So following the theme of fabric first, I thought I'd go insulation first. So wall with wall insulation.

So walls are generally, for most homes, the largest state of heat loss at a home. And a typical uninsulated tone. We reckon about 1/3 of the heat is lost through the walls. So wall insulation would be the first thing, one of the first things to consider.

Paul
Thermal image cameras.

Ewan
Did a great visual.

Paul
See you can.

Ewan
It's really easy for someone to quantify that when you see the thermal image and it's a great way to get an understanding of the home to give an example of savings. So for a standard sort of semi detached property on mains gas, if you were to put in cavity wall insulation, we estimate that can save about £155 a year. So you know, it's not an insignificant amount of money, so it can really have an impact. One thing I would always caveat with wall insulation, you need to make sure it's suitable for the type of insulation you're going to do and the material. So it's not just as simple as chucking and cavity wall insulation, but where suitable it can make a big improvement on the heating side of things.

One of the things that's absolutely going to say is a simple way is looking at the actual controls, so making sure you've got the right set of heating controls for your system. So whether if you've got a boiler, any type of boiler, perhaps an air heat pump system, your typical setup, you would look to have a programmer room thermostat and thermostatic radiator valves we'd normally see with your roomstat, making sure that's set between 18 and 21 degrees. You can get much more kind of complex and more I guess. More technical, logical solutions for heating controls. You can get apps on your phone now, you can get portable thermostats, which can really help with comfort because you can have them in the rooms that you want them to be in.

So it's worth just exploring those options if you can. There's a lot of different solutions out there.

Paul
And and it's it's my inquiring mind again. Is it more efficient to have your central heating or your heating system on it, say 19 degrees, rather than having it going off at such and such a time and coming on and going to 22 and then? You know, it's four, three or four hours. I mean it.

Ewan
Really depends on how you on your on your own behaviour within home if I'm honest. So normally we would say you'd have it set to come on at different times. So with a with a gas system for example, having it to come off and on is typically the way that people will have it. They'll set it to run for a certain amount of time in the morning, maybe in the evening, perhaps in the afternoon as well, and that's OK. If you've got a heat pump, for example during the winter, typically you won't actually switch the system off.

You'll have it designed to just it will drop to a certain temperature, say maybe like 14-16 degrees. Then you'll have it set to come on at higher periods at different times. So generally that system won't switch off because you don't want it starting from scratch again because it's working harder. So it does depend on the system and it's important you know the system that you've got to get the right advice on it. The last solution I was just going to touch on was with renewable technology, With more and more people now home working and the price of electricity being what it is, solar photovoltaic panels can be a great way to save money in the home.

They're not as expensive as some other options you know there are. Within reason, they're cost effective. Everyone has their own budgets, but they're not as expensive as they used to be. They can really make a significant impact on your electricity costs. You just want to check suitability off your home, make sure you've got the right orientation.

You've not got the shading on the roof, but that could be a really cost effective solution as well. OK.

Megan
And what kind of? Like a proportion of your electricity could be kind of generated from like a a solar panel.

Ewan
So the chat with solar, it has the potential to generate all the electricity you need throughout the year depending on your demand. The problem is matching up the demand with time for generating, so that's for other solutions such as a battery may be an option. So generally you'll always have an electricity bill, even with solar and battery, because you the supply and demand won't always match up. So in the summer months you will find the system generates a lot more. You may generate more than you need and some will go into the grid, some can go into a battery and in the winter you'll have the opposite effect, but it can significantly reduce your energy bills.

But it really depends on your behaviours within the home on what kind of impact you will have. But it does have the capacity to generate a significant amount of energy and certainly enough to meet your your typical usage. It's just trying to match the supply and demand up and.

Paul
And and the battery that you refer to. How long can that retain that energy for?

Ewan
Depend on the different system. So it's different. It's like anything really if I'm honest, you can get sort of your high range batteries and then there's kind of more cheaper solutions on the market. So it would be difficult to say without knowing what system you're going to put in, because you don't want to give a figure in case it varies. Depends on what you've got.

But there is different different options.

Paul
Available. Are we talking days, weeks, months?

Ewan
So you'd be looking at not looking at months certainly, so you'd be looking at days with it.

Paul
Right, so you couldn't have Sunny Summer store up all the.

Ewan
Yeah. So, yeah, in that sense you couldn't, you couldn't balance off your season. Also there's a, there will be a, there's a capacity on the battery as well. So for example, it may be like a a 4 or an 8 kilowatt battery. So you can only store the certain amount anyway. And by that point, see the next thing in the evening. You may use everything that's in the battery anyway, if that makes sense.

Paul
Right, well. Here we go. So where's technology gonna be in five or ten years? More efficient batteries? Maybe today.

Can we have a winter, summer battery? Is that gonna come? Yeah. I mean, wait, wait to see things. Are we gonna have many nuclear reactors in our homes? Are we?

Sam
Well, I think it's safe to say that Changeworks. We believe in a just transition to net zero. So that means seeing a joint approach and a fair approach for everybody. So we definitely see sort of a collaboration between the public and private sector in terms of where innovation is going to come from, particularly for retrofit. But there what we do know is there has to be significant investment into into the supply chain. So that means the creation of green skills jobs. So when I refer back to the one to one and a half million houses that actually need to have some sort of retrofit, that's a huge job to do. If we're going to do it and we're going to achieve our net zero in the allotted time by 2045, you know that is a massive, massive job to try and achieve. So there needs to be investment into green skills jobs and there needs to be investment into the supply chain as a whole. So yes, that we do see the the development particularly in fossil free systems, batteries et cetera that that can help meet that demand and we need to see that manufacturing in the UK.

Paul
Definitely in the UK. We could lead on this, couldn't we? I suppose we're catching up at the moment.

Sam
Tell me then from what you're saying, well I think you know there's there is there is a certain amount of capacity here in the UK but it it needs to grow significantly and if more and more people are are going to actually look to take action and retrofit their homes then yes we need a supply chain that can can meet that demand. But we are seeing it. I think you know we're there's there's definitely positive news that's that's coming through and we are seeing manufacturers and step up in terms of their capacity and capabilities and to to.

Paul
Deal with it.

Ewan
Our real challenge we have is flats. You know you guys touched on that. Yes, when you asked about it because I'm sure a lot of your listeners will yes, the agreement. So though for a lot of the properties, the technical solutions are there, we maybe just haven't quite got the supply chain ready to do it on the scale that we need to. So for a lot of this, the problems that we have, we do have the solutions in terms of the technology that may be supply chain gaps or knowledge gaps we've got. But flats for example where so when we talk about electrication of heat, we mentioned heat pumps is the solution. But for mid, you know mid floor flat that's not a solution. So what cost effective electric forms of heating can can be explored for these properties and there are different solutions that we're starting to see now, but it is challenging because it's trying to make it cost effective for the person living in the property. So I don't have a solution for it just now, but in terms of problems and challenges, that's certainly something we need to.

Paul
Look at, but as you say, so do you believe the future is down the electric route then in terms of even flats, you see electric radiators, panel, yeah, electric panels, that sort of thing coming through.

Ewan
Yeah. So that's the direction certainly that we're looking at.

Paul
Yeah. Well, we heard that, didn't we? Yeah, like storage.

Megan
Yeah, it was the new kind of storage heaters were coming back. Into as I say fashion, but you know back back into people's homes and we were quite shocked because I think back in the day, but I used to have storage heaters and it was it's like a big no, no when you're looking around rental flats.

Sam
Yeah, historically they definitely got a bad reputation. Yeah. I think with with systems that you can get today or being installed now in new properties as well that that technology is advanced. So much and so absolutely we're we're definitely for the electrification of of heat in in the home. Yeah, I think we'll also start to see as well an emergence of new services that come about that can help homeowners.

So I think what we'll start to see is probably the emergence of services that that combines the provision of energy with retrofit, which can help spread the cost of retrofit so that you can pay for it through your energy use. So I think that will be an an innovative solution that we'll start to see coming onto the market that that can then be a fair distribution of of retrofit for everybody.

Paul
Because you don't want this. As you say, this has to be inclusive, doesn't it? It might just be for the. Yep, than the moneyed few. So maybe a solution similar to and a basic principle similar to your phone where you you get the hardware, you pay for that over a period of time and you you have a useless charge per month.

Sam
And absolutely. That sort of model, Yep, absolutely. So I think those we'll start to see the emergence of those innovative solutions coming onto the market. But I think what will also happen, I think we're seeing it happen now. You know particularly with the the development of EcoCosi, what we wanted to do was have it as an education as well for people.

So as I said at the beginning, not everybody knows about retrofit, not everybody understands we're talking about technologies and perhaps measures that we don't know about. So how can we educate people into that. So I think what we'll start to see is an emergence of education and information that also comes directly from the manufacturers to home owners or to to renters as well. So that people can have build their own understanding of what these technologies do, how to actually work them properly to actually maximize the benefits as well. So that we can all build our understanding and and make better and informed choices which will then hopefully give us the confidence to to actually take action to retrofit our homes as well.

So I think we're already starting to see that, but it it needs to happen on a on a greater scale so that we're all as well informed as we possibly can be.

Paul
Yeah. And as you say, bit like with gas fire, you know gas or heating CORGI registered and I see EIC for electrical. Yeah, you you want to see that for this, don't you? You want it to be registered people that can do these things and do it absolutely do the quality standard. That's important.

Sam
Yeah. OK. Yeah.

Megan
Perfect. Well, I think that is everything that we had listed to chat to you guys about. Thank you so much. That was so interesting.

Paul
I'm feeling warmer.

Megan
It's always talk about the studio lights, but yeah, no thank you both. Thanks Sam and thanks Ewan and for coming along and chatting to us today.

Sam
Thank you very much.

Paul

Thank you very much. OK. So there we go. That's the episode.

We hope you enjoyed that. We say this every time, but we really did learn a lot from that.

Megan
Yeah, we did. As the guys mentioned, you can head over to the Change Works website. All the links will be posted in the show notes. If you want to find out more about what they do and get yourself an EcoCosi assessment otherwise, you can always get in touch with us. If you've got any feedback about some subjects you want us to cover in the future, you can e-mail us at marketing@espc.com.

We would always appreciate if you could rate or review whatever you're listening or watching, but otherwise we'll be back again next week.

Paul
Yeah, we certainly will. I say enjoyed the show today. The fabric, first thing I thought actually just reflecting on was really important about making sure at the beginning, you know, you you look at what else your property needs before you even start telling this. But yeah, really good episode and we hope you enjoyed it. Thanks for tuning in.

We do appreciate it. We really do. And yeah, keep the likes coming. They're growing, aren't they?

Megan
Yes, they are. We're our.

Paul
Audience, we're getting I'm getting better. You've been good from the beginning.

Megan
Well, we'll be back same time, same place next week. So thanks again for watching or listening, whatever you are watching or listening.

Paul
We'll see you soon. Thanks again. Bye. Bye.