The ESPC Property Show: Exploring Dumfries & Galloway

Paul Hi, is Paul from the ESPC show. And as ever with me is Megan.

Megan And today, we are introducing you to this week's episode, which is our longest episode yet.

Paul It's the longest drive as well.

Megan It is! Paul and I hit the road a few months ago and went down to Dumfries and Galloway, and we spoke to a few different members of the community down there. And yeah, without spoiling it too much, we'll just head straight into the episode. But we just wanted to let you know that is a  bumper special, but it's worth every minute.

Paul Indeed.

Megan Hello. Welcome back we're on the road. And we are in Dumfries & Galloway just to explore the area. We really wanted to just find out a bit more about life in Dumfries as that's one of the areas that ESPC covers.

Paul It is.

Megan Yeah, we're just heading into the centre to speak to Scott McKay at Midsteeple Quarter. So if you are a frequent listener to the podcast, you will remember that we had Mairi on the show on Town Centre Living and 20 Minute Neighbourhoods. One of the case studies she spoke about was Midsteeple Quarter. Yeah, so that's who we're away to speak to today, but Paul, I just wanted to ask you while we're on route there. Yes. What are your expectations of today?

Paul Ah, my expectations! I think it'll be really interesting and really interesting to speak to the guys about the Midsteeple project. We were really interested when Mairi was talking about it, so to go meet the actual people behind the scheme is great. Yeah, I'm really looking forward to it. And then maybe take in a few beauty spots and a spot of lunch. It can't all be about work!

Megan And hopefully avoid the rain as it has been raining.

Paul It has, but you know, it doesn't take away from the majesty of the place. I'm sure we're going to be absolutely fine.

Megan Yes. So we will catch up with you when we get to the town centre.

Paul We will.

Megan So all that's us on the high street now.

Paul It is, so we're off to see the Midsteeple Quarter project now going to go meet Scott. You know when I found out there was I think it's something like 680 members that they've got of the of the scheme. You know, so they've really galvanised local support and it's been a real community led project. So yeah, really interested hear more about the crowdfunding for it and they've repurposed these six building so excited.

Megan Yeah. So we'll catch back up to you when we are with Scott.

Paul So we've arrived. We're at the mid Steeple Quarter project. We are with Scott McKay, who is the executive director. We're going to hear a lot more from Scott in a moment. Maybe probably the place to start. Scott, tell us a little bit about the project. How did it actually begin?

Scott It's difficult to say exactly when it began because it was part of a conversation that with the local community and the stove network who are an artist collective, that became a development trust that actually started in 2011, but throughout 2015, 16, 17, that conversation got going. It was a lot of engagement with the local community around what is the town, what's the problems with the town, what do the people see as their aspirations for the future of the town and trying to frame potential community involvement in trying to turn its fate around because it was clearly not in a good place. It had been a town where a lot of the properties had been owned by local businesses and families. Historically, then through the eighties and nineties, those properties were taken over by fund investors because the national chains had moved in and opened up. So that ownership pattern had changed dramatically and it was no longer owned by local interests, it was owned by external interests. So therefore the capital would essentially be extracted at the centre of the town and the only money that was kept in the town was wages essentially. And so it was about how do we actually turn that back around? And the idea of a organisation, which was the community in control, the community owning the buildings and the community who know best what's good for the town, what they need, being in the decision making position about what these buildings should be used for.

Paul And we were saying just earlier this could be a blueprint for other towns up and down the UK because I think every town has similar challenges, doesn't it, where you, you know, you've got those empty units, you've got absent landlords, we still have a housing crisis, so all these things have conspired really haven't they? 680 members. I mean that really is galvanised locally isn't it. That's real local interest in the project.

Scott Yeah there is. And we'd like it to be a lot more than that. But as a good representation of the town and, and it shows that there is a real feeling within the town that something has to be done about the state of the High Street. There's a real sort of trauma, of that generational change that's happened to the town where as it was, you look at old photographs from the sixties and seventies and it was thriving. It was busy.

Paul It's sad when you see that.

Scott It's sad and people are sad and demoralised by that change. And so there is definitely a feeling within the community that they need to do something about it. And if people can get involved to do that and that's what's happened, it's the community that are that are doing it. We're all members of the community. It's not somebody coming from externally to sort it out. It's it's grassroots. It's like we're going to take this on.

Paul Community led, as you say. And I think so far, six buildings that you've now got. And we were just talking, weren't we, about what you're going to do with these buildings. And some of that is for residential. And we'll talk about that in a moment. But so there's also and I'm choosing my words carefully here, Enterprise Space. Do you want to explain what enterprise space is because you were very clear you want to make a distinction between that and retail, don't you?

Scott Yeah, the housing element is very important because that's bringing people back to live in the high street, these buildings, a lot of these historic buildings, because this is a conservation area, this building, most of the buildings in the high Street are over 100 years old. And historically there would have been a lot more people living upper floors and down the closes behind those high street buildings. And there would have been a busy immediate community living there. So it's about trying to bring that back with the purpose of creating a community, but also that those people are living in the high street and, you know, using the services of the high street. So it starts to keep the money cycle going.

Scott The enterprise bit, we've been very careful about the use of that word because I wanted to cover a number of things. So it's not primarily retail anymore. As we know retail is contracting. So we need to look at other uses that are going to be part of sustaining the high Street into the future. So enterprise can cover a number of things that could be new enterprise, new businesses, which could be retail, but retail possibly with something else, you know, some kind of element of maybe education or learning or leisure attached to it. And it could be enterprise in terms of creativity. So artists using space for exhibitions, for workshops, for studios, it could be a more kind of leisure cafe, food led. Enterprise in the sense that it's a positive thing, It's something that's growing and it's not necessarily static. So we want to be able to facilitate these spaces, make them available for new start-ups incubation of new enterprises. You know, a lot of people have got an idea, but it's very expensive to take a high street shop. How do you do that? So if we provide either discounted or free for a certain period, then it can get things up and running to make take a small space and it grows into something that becomes bigger. That's the idea of enterprise. So it's about creating that new local economy, getting it going again, and the housing, the rental income from the housing, which we own brings us an income that underpins that financially. So we're not dependent on the leases on the ground floor any longer, which has been how the High Street has operated.

Paul Indeed. And you were saying earlier, Scott, just in terms of these will be properties that will be rented out, but you're talking about make mid-market rent here.

Scott Yes, mid-market rent. So it's affordable. It's not at the high end of rental and we're targeting key workers. So that is another factor in that that's where at the moment anyway in the town, that's where the market is. There's a lack of quality, affordable rented accommodation and that is currently an obstacle to recruitment for the likes of the NHS, the local authority, the main employers. People can't find quality accommodation and this and the owner, the private owners sector as well. There's a lack of stock. So somebody coming to the area wanted to somewhere to live for the first six months has to get themselves established, taking on a job. They're really struggling to get accommodation and that's putting people off. So there's a market there. We're tapping into that market by providing accommodation that meets that market. So that is is easy. We're working with the local NHS trusts particularly they are helping us with how that might look and what their needs are. And the key workers is really at this stage is what we're focusing on for the renting of these flats.

Paul Yeah. And can I ask just just in terms of the acquisition of these six buildings, I know some of this was crowdfunded, but where did the money come from to ultimately?

Scott Yeah, a combination of crowd funding, which are essentially donations, significant donations from the local public, whether it's £20 here or there, too many hundreds of pounds from and thousands from some people. So a real mixture of donations and all, but also some public money in terms of the Scottish Land Fund, which is why that's lottery money, actually a Scottish land fund. And so that helped us acquire some of the buildings too. And also South of Scotland Enterprise, as they were getting set up, they helped us acquire one of the buildings as well. And so there's a real mixture of public money, lottery money, and local donations.

Paul Yeah.

Megan And so if someone is listening to this from another town or another city and thinking this is the kind of initiative that they'd want to start, they might be wondering what kind of barriers did you face on the creation of this project, or maybe you continued to face.

Scott Yeah, there's constant barriers because the system as it has been set up is failing at the moment. We have we're looking at market failure. So the market is failing, but also the systems that are in place, the legislative such as systems, don't really reflect the current reality. So you've got such people, you've got conservation and other listed buildings. That's a challenge in itself. It's more expensive to bring these buildings back into use, particularly where many of them have been neglected for a long time. They're not going to meet current standards in terms of energy efficiency either. That's a big challenge we're trying to deal with from a design perspective. And also, you've got you know, you've got your challenges of building control and accessibility. So these are new buildings which are over 100 years old. You want to use these first and upper floors for your various community uses potentially. But how do you make them accessible to people who don't have the ability to go upstairs? That's another challenge. And building control don't really help with that because they just move quite rightly. They say, Well, if it's not accessible to the community, then you can't use it for that use. So these are one of the reasons why a lot of these spaces are just not usable and where they're not fit for purpose. Planning is a challenge as well. Planning has been very much favoured retail in the High Street and it's been difficult to get change of use away from retail. That's changed slightly now with the youth class changes. So it's more flexibility there, but it's don't I don't think it doesn't go far enough. And you've got know the challenges of residential in these and how do you. Simple things fire. Fire proofing soundproofing bins storage. Look practicalities of living and high street situation are not not easy either. But business rates as well are a big challenge. You know, for us to be able to lease shop unit to a organisation that's maybe not for profit, how can they afford the business rate? That's that's a big obstacle and. One of our tenants has actually had to become a charity in order because financially it just wouldn't work otherwise, which they didn't want to do because they see themselves as a social enterprise. And these are the kind of legislative and financial challenges that we have to.

Paul Do you pay business rates on. We had a little look at your project, the with the completion moment, did you get an exemption or a period of grace. Since you're doing these things to open these up.

Scott So if there's a listed building, there's an exemption there. The construction site of phase one that doesn't pay business rates because we don't have anybody in it but once that's occupied, yes, the tenants will liable for business rates.

Paul And as you say, if it the tenants not paying any rent, they've still got to find the business rates.

Scott Yes, we've gotb an empty Debenhams building there now it's actually a local charity that have occupied that and so they're exempt because they're a charity. But any tenant looking to take on that big unit like that, they would be I, I believe the numbers have been talked about 60, over £60,000 in business rates before they even said well anything, before they even open the doors and that's a huge challenge. There's good things in planning. There are changes as well. So so you knew the new national planning framework for has is very much focussed on 20 minute neighbourhoods and I think that is a positive thing for town centres and our model very much fits with that. So people living back in the centre of the town again and being able to walk or cycle to their day to day needs and services without having to get in a car and travel and and commute or whatever, that's that's good for us, it's good for town centres. But that, that's going to take a long time to have an effect. And we've got situations where the big employers, local authority, they've moved their offices out or people are now just not wanted to come back to. Offices are working from home. All of that is a challenge. No, we should have the main employers or the local authority having their offices right in the centre of the town like they would of historically this building that you tend to stay with the town hall. So this would have been an administrative centre for the town hall for the town a couple of hundred years ago. And that model in a sense, we need to get back to basics.

Paul So if you go back to the probably the days we all remember with fondness, when you could walk down the high street to your butcher baker, maybe candlestick maker. And those days have gone and it's because that big box out of town retail units. Now I do feel we we need to get local identity back as well but.

Scott Yeah, local identity, that's an interesting one as well as local character and distinctiveness. So a town like Dumfries, yes, it's a great conservation area. There are lovely old buildings. They're not in great shape, most of them. But that is part of that local character of the town. Dumfries is distinctive. It's got many because of the quarries and the architecture of the Red Sandstone is part of that character of the town. And that's something that we should celebrate and promote and focus on is this is different from other towns.

Megan Before we wrap up, I just wanted to ask you if you had any advice for anybody in another town thinking about starting a similar kind of community initiative. Would you have any words of wisdom for them?

Scott For us, I think what's made it happen has been that community community support that got off the ground there and then in transitioning that into a financial support. So using that community support to justify the ask for money, whether that's the ask from the community for donations to get it off the ground or the ask to the government and local authority for grants. We've created a situation now where the funders can see that there's support there, that it's a long term view, that it's not just an idea. And that really is a part of the phase one idea of phase one, as well as the.

Paul Sort of proof of concept and.

Scott Proof of concept.

Paul Was the hardest part almost getting the thing to that stage.

Scott I think that was the hardest part, getting it from an idea to a reality. Elements of the community who are where were supportive right from the early days of the idea. But a lot of people don't believe it until they start seeing it. They're very sceptical. There's been many ideas in the past that never happened or I'm not going to put any money into that. I'm not going to spend any time support now, but know that they can see the scaffolding up on the building emerging. People are waking up and think, Wow, this is actually happening. And we've seen another kind of wave of support on the back of that. Brilliant.

Paul And what's the sort of three or five year or maybe it's even longer. What what's the long term plan?

Scott It's really a 15 to 20 year vision. So there is a masterplan. So that's another aspect of the kind of building blocks of this whole vision as a masterplan which is actually approved by the council. What statutory policy and the local development plan, its planning policy, essentially that there's a vision that the community lead, which is a mixed use masterplan mix of uses housing. And enterprise uses. And that gives us a status. So when we're asking for funding or the decisions being made, it's a status that is taken seriously. And that vision is about creating a new community, both a living community and this quarter of people living in it, but also an enterprising working community. So the spaces which are enterprising spaces that new wealth has been created locally, creating jobs, creating products that will gradually, we hope, and grow into a localised economy that turns around the fortunes of the town.

Paul How long till the first building is ready for?

Scott So it's but two thirds of its way through its construction, so it's programmed currently to be finished at the end of February next year, 2024. And so we would hope that by April 24 there'll be people living and working in that space.

Paul We've got to come back and see that. Brilliant Scott that's been really inspiring, really enjoyed the chat. Thank you for your time.

Megan If anyone wants to keep up to date with what you're doing, do you have any social media?

Scott We do it very much. It's very important tool for us. So we have got Twitter, Instagram, Facebook and LinkedIn as well. So if you just search from Midsteeple quarter in any of those formats, you'll find us. And then we keep regular updates on their stories about our members or the team and what's going on. Midsteeplequarter.org is our website and anyone anywhere you don't have to live in the office can sign up and be a member and you will get a regular newsletter keeping you up to date on what's happening.

Megan  So we are now back in the car, Paul We're heading out to Gatehouse on Fleet. And I guess what I was wondering what you were thinking of our chat with Scott?

Paul I mean, the passion came through didn't it? You know, I think it's exciting. Thing is we've gotten to that stage now where it's more than just an idea. Yeah. You know, have a look at the building on the bottom of the scale. Yeah, it's pretty impressive. I think as he described the fact that the money, the money cycle, the money goes back into the town. Yeah. Big market rents for the tenants. There's a fairness about the entire thing, which I think is really inspiring. Yeah, I think it's the model. I think that's the future for it.  It's always what you need is a business which is like minded.

Megan Yeah, definitely. Yeah. There's definitely a handful of places already springs to mind the town centres that that I'm sure would benefit from that injection of community support. But yeah, so now we're heading off to see Finlay Carson local MSP for Dumfries and Galloway and he's quite excited to speak to us.

Megan He's also involved with the committee for rural affairs. I think I'll be interested to talk to him about all of those. And, you know, we go a little bit further out now. And so be interesting to see. As I often when you drive by these places what the people do for a living. We have so far out there.

Megan No, definitely. And I think that was why we went to speak to Finlay was just to learn more about why people should live in Dumfries, what it's like to live here.

Paul So we've arrived, Megan. Where have we arrived to?

Megan We are just outside Gatehouse on Fleet and we are at Laggan, which is an estate, and we're at the top of the hill and we'll cut to show you our view now.

Paul That view is sensational.

Megan Absolutely Yeah we're away into Gather which a bistro and we're gonna go and chat to Finlay Carson MSP.

Paul Yeah looking forward to chatting to elected 2016 Galloway and West Dumfries is his constituency as I say he's the convenor for Rural Affairs, Islands and Natural Environment. So I'm sure he's got a tale to tell. So yeah, a local lad, so we're going to find out all about him.

Megan Yeah. So yeah, we'll send you, you know, to our chat with Finlay.

Paul So as promised now with Finlay Carson MSP constituency of Galloway on Western free want to get that right elected in 2016. So you've been in politics a while.

Finlay It only seems like yesterday that and I was a farmer prior to that and my brother and I diversified into providing broadband services and things like that to help our local communities and, you know, only feels like yesterday we entered politics. And I still really don't see myself as a politician. But it's the best job in the world representing Galloway and West Dumfries. So I'm delighted to still be the MSP and be working hard for this constituency.

Paul Good for you. And I think we were just told about this weren't we Finlay, that you know, you're a local lad, if I can say that you were born in...

Finlay Twynam!

Paul It's a few miles from here. You still live locally, did you say that you can see your house from here?

Finlay Yeah, absolutely. This is one of the best views in Dumfries and Galloway. And you can just see the roof of my house from here.

Paul It's so it's the best job in the world. How would you describe for people maybe you haven't been to Dumfries Galloway before. How would you describe? It's quite diverse, isn't it?

Finlay We sometimes get the label of the forgotten part of Scotland. I would prefer to say it's Scotland in miniature. We've got we've got everything in Dumfries and Galloway. We've got some of the most wonderful beaches, and that's ranging from rocky and cliff type beaches to to big sandy beaches like sandy hills and wherever. And then we've got some amazing hidden gems like Mossyard where you've got the sand and and you can fish and and boating and whatever And then only a few yards away you've got the forestry and you've got the hills. So we've got everything here really. It's a wonderful place to live and a wonderful place to visit.

Paul We've been talking about the economy and the local economy, I mean, tourism plays a part. Tourism plays a part, I would imagine, in the local economy.

Finlay Yeah, absolutely. Tourism is one of the most important parts. And, you know, agriculture, as you can see, is very much an agricultural area. But hand in hand, they do a lot for the local economy. And we're actually seeing more and more tourism businesses and food and drink businesses to, who now, look to, you know, and enhance this offering by opening up farms.

Paul Local produce, and know the provenance of your foods from.

Finlay Dumfries and Galloway is also very famous for its butchers, Castle Douglas in particular. There are people who travel miles and miles every weekend to get their meat in Castle Douglas. So that says something. But we've got some amazing bakeries. We've got a smokehouse just along the road here where we get some lovely local produce. Kirkcudbright is very famous, it's one of the largest, if not the larger scallop ports in the United Kingdom, and that drives our economy as well. I think scallop industry is worth something like 55 million.

Paul That's a lot of scallops!

Finlay Yep, it is. And, you know, that's some of the best scallops in the world and the landed and processed in Kirkcudbright and we've got some amazing seafood. We sometimes forget that when we go to the Mediterranean, quite often the seafood that we get down there could well have come from Kirkcudbright..

Paul Is that right?

Finlay So the scallops and the langoustines could well be from right here.

Paul You wouldn't believe that when you actually I did notice that you're the convenor of the Rural  Affairs and Islands committee.

Finlay Yes.

Paul I suppose subject matter close to your heart, I would imagine with your history being in farming.

Finlay I'm passionate about rural areas. There's no islands in Dumfries and Galloway. But much of the opportunities and but also the challenges the islands of we see here in Dumfries and Galloway. So connectivity, both in terms of transport and broadband, are an issue. But I like to see my job as, as also looking to the, the benefits the attractions of living in a rural area and how to get over some of the difficulties. So it's a great job. And my background is as a farmer and living here my whole life gives us a great insight to the challenges that we do have, and they do range from education to health to transport. Like anyone else. But the unique challenges that you need, that you need unique a resolution to.

Paul What would be the best part of your job?

Finlay Oh, goodness. I think it is it's problem solving.

Paul Yeah.

Finlay We deal with a lot of legislation and as a convenor of a committee in the Scottish Parliament, the role of that committee is to challenge, scrutinise and hold the Government to account. So if legislation comes forward. I'm very lucky to have a committee where almost everybody comes from a rural background they can look at the legislation, just make sure that it's fit for purpose and that's doing yeah, what it says.

Paul And so it's not just Edinburgh centric and really just happens in the Metropole and we forget about the rural community.

Finlay And it is difficult because as you know, the vast bulk of the population live in the central belt. So sometimes rural issues do take a back seat, then we've got to make sure that they realise that some of the solutions for issues in the central belt are just not suitable for rural areas. You know, Scotland has a drug problem, how to address that is different in rural areas than it is in inner cities. Transport. You know, we're delivering a lot of the solutions to climate change. So agriculture is doing a huge amount to to reduce the greenhouse gases. But we have wind turbines, we have hydro. So we're producing lots of green energy. So we need to also make sure that folk in the Central belt are the main benefactors of that green energy, recognise that rural areas need to need some attention to that. Lots of opportunities.

Paul Yeah, definitely. And we I mean earlier we were looking at a mid steeple quarter project weren't we?

Megan Yeah in the town centre and just how they're implementing like that circular economy.

Paul Community led initiative.

Finlay And that's really important - we've got incredibly strong communities down here. Stranraer in particular I've got a soft spot for Stranraer. It's seen hard times since the ferry left that the centre of the town, but the community spirit across say on the desire to there for individuals, to get off the backsides and do something to help. It's quite incredible and we're seeing a lot of money invested in Stranraer, upwards of 11 million to improve the seafront and a Loch Ryes, a fantastic water sports venue, very safe, almost an inland sea, and there's a lovely beach front in Stranraer as well. So but the community is driving that and that's the important thing. It's it's not we don't like things being done to us. We like to lead them.

Paul I mean, obviously, as you know, ESPC, we are very much in the property sector. We talking about Dumfries today and the challenges there about getting people on the ladder, where to rent or to buy - as an MSP if you had any questions to put to the Housing Minister or any advice for the Housing Minister, what would you say?

Finlay Oh goodness. Well, you know, you talked about being in the midst Steeple Quarter and I don't think it's a surprise to anybody that we need to see people back living in our town centres. We need thriving town centres. And one of the reasons I think we see them run down compared to what they were a few years ago is there's not people living there anymore. We've had multinationals buy shop fronts and there and what were flats, whatever above have become redundant and neglected. So it's great to see once again community organisations looking to bring people into town centres and particularly in Dumfries where it's, you know, we call it the university town, we don't have a University of Dumfries, but we have some fantastic further education organisations up at the Crighton and they're trying to get young people back in the centre. It's the same in Stranraer. We've seen developments where some derelict buildings have been brought back into use to provide affordable housing for, I was going to see start ups, but for people who are trying to get their first foot on the ladder, there is often criticism that in areas like this, a lot of the affordable accommodation is snapped up for second homes and for short term lets. But that is such an important part of an economy as well. And it creates jobs like Laggan, you know, a lot of the people who come here will be people who are staying in cottages.

Paul Yeah, it's a double edged sword isn't it?

Finlay Yeah, it's it's getting the balance right. So certainly I would welcome some of the social housing organisations ramping up a little bit when it comes to building social housing in our towns. We have an issue here where if you're made homeless in Stranraer, the chances of getting homeless accommodation in Stranraer is very slim and you sometimes get moved right across the region. Now again, if you're in the city of Glasgow, you probably can still hop on a bus and get to work or your kids can still go at the same school. But you can imagine if you find yourself in difficulties with housing in Stranraer and you get moved to Dumfries, you know, we're talking about 70, 80 miles. And it's not just your house. You're losing, you're losing your support network, you're potentially the opportunities to go to your job or your children tp stay on at school. So yeah, we do have a lack of affordable housing within our towns and villages as well. Just like public transport is not as good as it might be here. So we do need people living in our villages close to to where they can get to school, where they can get to work.

Paul Yeah, and we hear that today, the 20 minute town, you know, everything within proximity, everything walkable but.

Finlay 20 minute towns that's...

Paul It's got its negative connotations.

Finlay But we could have done that better. And that's something I have discussed with the ministers, that it's a great idea, but the best place for that policy to be, is in a rural area and it's, you know, 20 minutes. So it's maybe not 20 miles, but it's actually to look at the critical mass, the services within a community. Now, the critical mass is within Kirkcudbright, they are going to be completely different from what they are in Twynam. So for Twynam to be sustainable and whatever it may need a primary school, it might need a pub, it might need somewhere for people to to buy their groceries and that's it. But in Kirkcudbright, we probably need primary skills, secondary education, a GP service and access to a training to sports facilities. So I think the whole 20 minute community vision, we should have seen that rolled out in rural areas and and everybody's have their bespoke whether it's 20 or 25 minutes and that would have returned far more benefits to Dumfries and Galloway than thinking about 20 minutes in Dumfries because the end of the day most people in villages it's not a bus every 5 minutes, it's whether they get the bus at 10:00 or get it at 1:00 or get at 6:00. And yeah, that's the choice. But that doesn't mean to say that community can't be resilient and sustainable.

Paul Yeah, and we all I think we need that. We don't want to end up with every living in two big cities in Scotland, do we not? I think that I think we'd all be poorer for that, really.

Finlay And we do. As I say, we do have a fantastically resilient villages and communities, but we need recognition that now and again, we need a little bit more support to ensure the local shop doesn't close or the local primary school doesn't close. And you know, we see that in some places where people have come together, increased the school role, encourage new families into the area. And you know, some of that smaller communities are really thriving and vibrant. Yeah.

Paul Okay.

Megan Yeah. Thanks very much for coming to speak to us today. I think our lunch has just arrived, so we're going to go and tuck into that. But thanks very much.

Finlay Your absolute pleasure.

Paul Thanks. Finlay, cheers.

Finlay Pleasure.

Megan So that is us back in the car at night after having our lunch and chat with Finlay Carson, and we are now going to head down to Kirkcudbright, where we're going to be meeting Paul Cavers to check out the local property market. So we'll check back in with you once we're there.

Paul So here we are. We're in the Solway Tide Cafe. We're just going to have a chat with Paul about the property market. Paul So you're from Cavers and Co family business started in 2004, seen all sorts of property markets in that time?

Paul C We have yeah, we've seen all sorts of different scenarios.

Paul But yeah so.

Paul C But it's good times now.

Paul  I was going to say that I think we'll start with that as the first question. And so how is the market right now?

Paul C Yeah, well, ever since the COVID times when I think just about every area experienced a bit of a boost after that, we've really found that it's really continued on since then. And there are a few sort of signs of things slowing down towards the end of last year, 2022. But we've actually found that the first six months of this year have been extremely busy and similar numbers of properties coming onto the market as of last year. And I think initially post-COVID, it was a lack of supply that was sort of really affecting the market mostly. But we found that this year supply has not really been an issue.

Paul Okay. So nice balance between enough buyers and sellers. Wow! That doesn't happen often.

Paul C It doesn't, no. Yeah, I think there was a sort of hesitancy maybe after COVID for for people to get their properties on the market, but they've really seen how things have gone in that time and they're more confident about coming to market, knowing that they won't have to wait too long for a sale.

Paul So, okay. And we were just saying the search results on espc.com for the area up 2% year on year. Home Report views up 2% total views of 12% If we went elsewhere, it's different. You know, we've certainly seen after the frenzy of the sort of post-COVID years, things have calmed down. But let's just say here, things have been steady all along. I mean, you do cover quite a big patch here, don't you? We'll come on to the nature of the buyers in the second. But you were saying 25 miles that way? That way?

Paul C Yeah that's right it's a big patch, big rural area. So lots of different towns in that patch and sort of each has their own unique identity I suppose. And but yes, we cover quite a large area, mostly rural. Newton Stewart to the west and then about as far east as Castle Douglas/ Dalbeattie, that sort of thing.

Paul So a long way to go to an accompanied viewing!

Paul C It is yeah, it can be.

Paul I bet you have to double check the buyers going to turn up for the viewing. Okay. So we were just talking about the market and the nature of of buyers. And I mean, we were going to ask you about have interest rates had an impact on the market and you feel. Well, you tell me.

Paul C Well, I think we feel we've had some degree of insulation from that. And I think that traditionally buyers in this area have tended to be cash buyers. Yes, we're obviously close to the border, the English border. So a lot of buyers in this area are tending to be of retirement age, looking to retire. So the area maybe having sold their long term house down South.

Paul So maybe downsizing.

Paul C Yeah, downsizing. And so they're not you know, the vast majority here are not buying with mortgages. So we've had that sort of insulation from market pressures.

Paul What percentage would you say? Probably an unfair question, but just an approximation of cash offers.

Paul C Off the top of my head, I would say is around about 80%.

Paul 80. Wow, that is significant.

Paul C I'd say it is that high.

Paul So you can see why interest rate rises are not probably going to impact on. In fact, actually the probably the people with cash or money in the bank may be benefiting from interest rate.

Paul C Well, that's that's true there maybe gives them that wee bit extra to spend on the furniture.

Paul Well and what about first home buyers though, because they would be impacted. They wouldn't be buying cash, I would imagine.

Paul C No, that's true. And we do have some in this area, I think maybe less so than in central belt areas. But yeah, we've definitely noticed properties on the sort of lower value end of the market have been a bit slower than others and I think that probably is the lack of first time buyers and equally people buying to let perhaps if they're buying with a mortgage, the buy-to-let purchasers tend to be quite market savvy and I think they see mortgages as being quite expensive at the moment and they're really just holding back a bit until things improve.

Paul So what sort of price first-time buyers wise? What price would they be buying typically in Kirkcudbright? Or what can you get?

Paul C Yeah. Well, in this, certainly in Kirkcudbright anyway, you'd be struggling to get anything much below about 80,000. But you the first time buyer market may be up to sort of 150,000 in this area.

Paul But certainly anyone who's, but as we know, the Edinburgh market, 80,000. It just wouldn't exist in Edinburgh would it really. You'd really struggle.

Paul C I think that's a message I would, I would try and convey is that bargains can be had down here. And I think, you know, if you're prepared to look a bit further afield, then then I think, you know, there is good value for money.

Paul Sounds it. A lot of people buying second homes?

Paul C I think that has been impacted by the increase in additional dwelling supplement as well. It obviously went up towards the end of last year with no warning at all, now 6%. And so that has had some impact. But equally, I think the types of buyers who do tend to buy second homes are maybe a bit more willing to pay that tax perhaps.

Paul Yeah.

Paul C And so it doesn't hold people back, you know.

Paul Again, it's in the total offering if they've got cash, it's the total offering isn't it, Between the offer and the ads. So first-time buyer looking to get on the ladder, you mentioned that 80,000 this is possible in Kirkcudbright. Is that any of the spots where it's even less than that?

Paul C Well, I think you can find similar prices to that in areas like Castle Douglas and maybe Dalbeattie as well.

Paul Yes.

Paul C And once you get over towards Dumfries, it's probably a bit higher than that. But but you're likely to find some smaller properties in that region as well.

Paul So, I mean, are those prices sort of staying steady over the last couple of years, I mean, elsewhere we've seen quite significant rises in some particular types of properties. And certainly the frenzy of the covid is that we've seen?

Paul C I would say, the sort of price prices of properties in that range have been fairly steady over the last few years here.

Paul And the hotspots, Where's the hottest hot spots at the moment?.

Paul C Right here in Kirkcudbright. Kirkcudbright as a town is really booming.

Paul I think you get a feel when you walk around. Yeah.

Paul C But it's really busy this time of year. Obviously relies a lot on tourism. They've been marketing the artist town branding really well over the last sort of ten years or more. And that is really going from strength to strength. Notice lots of artistic types moving into town. Even once in commercial premises and things. So I think all of that's really added up to to making it one of the hotspots of the region. So yeah.

Paul And we I mean, we've been elsewhere today and we, we started off in Dumfries talking about community based projects and then we were talking to Finlay about the community taking control and making things happen. And there's just so much amount of this that similar things happening.

Paul C Really. Yeah, well we've seen that even in Kirkcudbright, there's a former primary school called the Johnston just just slightly out to the centre of town that was taken over by a community body. So that's now it's added nursery facilities to the town and a planetarium, a gin distillery and rooms for hire and things. So, you know, all of these are great community assets.

Paul Now to give you a chance to Kirkcudbright to the listeners, what would you say?

Paul C For some of the reasons I've already mentioned, the fact that it's booming, I think there's opportunities there for buy to let purchasers, you know, because the the holiday makers I think.

Paul There's a good yield on the rent I would imagine?

Paul C I would say there is and holiday rentals, I think there's there's money to be made there, you know, balanced against the types of prices you might pay in somewhere like Edinburgh, for example, that, you know, I think there are bargains to be had. But even, you know, if you're looking for a place to retire to, then, you know, it's value for money compared with other parts of the country. Although you know, demand for properties is still relatively high and prices are still increasing comparative to other parts of the country, I still think there's bargains to be had.

Paul Yeah. And what would you typically pay then for a sort of out of town, three bedroom stone detached?

Paul C Prices can range anything from sort of low 200,000 up to, you know, over half a million in some cases, depending on where it is, what the outlook as the condition and so on.

Paul But even at those prices, that seems good value. 

Paul C Yeah, I think we've had we obviously act for quite a few purchasers in this region as well. And hearing some of the prices that they're getting for just a standard family home in the south of England and then they come up here and see how far their money goes and what they can get for that. I think they're quite pleasantly surprised.

Paul Can I can I ask you about you mentioned it there, a transaction where it's a sale in Scotland sorry, a purchase in Scotland and a sale in England. Do people generally tie those two things up because you've got two different legal systems there

Paul C Yeah, they do. I mean they are separate and we can't act in both transactions.

Paul I imagine there's an element of education process when an English buyer might come to this come here to, to buy. I guess you explain that walk them through the process.

Paul C Yeah. And we try and do that at the very, very earliest opportunity. You know, when we're first meeting the client and, you know, talking through the whole process from the offers or negotiation and offers going in right through to completion and how that might differ from from England and what their expectations should be.

Paul Arguably a better system in Scotland with high, higher satisfaction rates, that's for sure, and more certainty earlier on and less sales fall through. That's absolutely certain, that's absolutely fact. I mean certainly 25/30% of sales potentially in England will fall through, here, six 7%. So, you know, that's something, you know, significant there. What would be your outlook, Paul, for the rest of the year?

Paul C We're pretty positive. I think, you know, judging by the first six months of the year that we've had steady number of new instructions for sales and, you know, similar numbers of buyers that we're acting for as well. And I think there are it depends where you get your news. But I think there are sort of equal numbers of stories of possibly interest rates still have some way to go yet. I've read similar stories to say they might you know, maybe getting near the peak, though. So, you know, if we can see these interest rates coming down towards the end of the year, then I think that could be really good for the market, good for sentiment and good for first time buyers. And as much as we are insulated from it here and ultimately first time buyers are the start of your chain. So, you know, we need that market to be strong potentially.

Paul Yeah. Okay, brilliant. Well, thank you, Paul. Thank you for your time. I really enjoyed the conversation. Thank you.

Paul C For. All right. Great pleasure.

Megan So that was Paul's chat with Paul cavers.

Paul Yeah. I mean, I tell you, what struck me was when we were talking to Paul and I suppose you get conditioned, to big city prices not only the price of tea, but the price of property. But he was saying 80,000 and almost apologising. Saying 80,000 for, first-time buyer properties like wow.

Megan Yeah I know.

Paul We just don't see those. So prices in the sense this is you know astonishing to hear 80% of purchases are cash.

Megan Yeah.

Paul It's a really high number. And as he says, a lot of people retiring here and moving here and probably interest rates have impacted as much.

Megan Yeah, and you can see why people are retiring here. Right.

Paul I suppose if I had one disappointment, we have not enough time to go to all these other places that are on the must see list. So apologies to everyone that's mentioned, places to us, but we only have so much time in the day.

Megan I know exactly. And we will probably come back down again. But, you know, this won't be our last visit to Dumfries and Galloway. If you have like this episode, please feel free to like, if you're watching us on YouTube, give us like, and subscribe to our YouTube channel. If you're listening on podcast and remember to subscribe, but you can also send us an email. We'd love to hear your thoughts on the episode on Dumfries.